Curse

darktyco · Sep 04, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

If they introduce new ways grindless to get reputation then great, thats exactly what wer're asking for! The entire point of posting here is to let anet know that this is what we want. Give us access to these skills without grind!

Yes, yes, and yes!

BTW Diablo, I don't see anyone here asking to be given skills and armor for doing nothing. In fact, I want to put effort in to get the PvE skills. But the effort should be in completing challenging quests, dungeons, missions, etc. Those kinds of things are not grinding, they are just playing the game.

Doing the same repetitive task over and over IS a grind, and it rewards time spent over player skill. The facts clearly show the GWEN reverses the reason I got into Guild Wars in the first place: that skill should be rewarded over time spent. Prophecies really did have it right...

Burst Cancel · Sep 04, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Save the straw men.

The issue here is that the new PvE skills reward players for grind with increased effectiveness. This is expressely contrary to the original spirit of the game. There is nothing wrong with plain titles or vanity items, because neither one affects character strength at all. You can spend a lot of time getting Legendary Cartographer, and the only benefit you'll ever see is bragging rights. The most expensive equipment in the game has the same stats as collector items. There is no issue with grind for these ends. The problem arises when we can grind for improved performance - this is strictly more power for time spent.

However, while the PvE skills are inappropriate in principle, I also think that the practical differences between ranks is relatively minor. The first several ranks in a title can be acquired easily with minimal grind, and the difference between a PvE skill at r5 and one at r8+ generally isn't anything beyond a few seconds of duration or a few extra points of damage. Obviously, the difference may be significant in some cases, and again, rank-dependence is inappropriate in principle, but overall I think the tangible, in-game difference is negligible.

All of that being said, I don't see any reason for tying PvE skills to title ranks. Anet could have easily made PvE skills with static parameters and avoided this issue altogether. I agree that they're beginning to forget their original design philosophies.

Mordakai · Sep 04, 2007, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Save the straw men.

The issue here is that the new PvE skills reward players for grind with increased effectiveness. This is expressely contrary to the original spirit of the game. There is nothing wrong with plain titles or vanity items, because neither one affects character strength at all. You can spend a lot of time getting Legendary Cartographer, and the only benefit you'll ever see is bragging rights. The most expensive equipment in the game has the same stats as collector items.

That's not exactly true: Req 8, +15% unmodified, and dual reduction shields are just some examples of rare items that cannot be made. There are also rare items with combos of stats that can't be crafted and/or no Green equivalents.

But to your general point of "skill > grind..." Yes, there is no argument that some PvE skills are more powerful than other skills. But how hard is it really to get most of these skills? I mean, there are Elite skills that are very challenging to get, and yet no one complains about those. It's just part of the Guild Wars experience.

As long as the competitive area of Guild Wars stays on equal footing (and I'd actually argue that PvP has been made MORE balanced with the PvP editions for example), then Anet has fullfilled it's promise.

PvE is not about "fair" play, it's about having fun. I can have fun in Guild Wars without the +100 armor skill from grinding Faction points, and while it is not ideal to me, it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of Guild Wars.

gabrial heart · Sep 04, 2007, 04:38 PM // 16:38

First, if you're *grinding* for end game items, then your not enjoying the game, so move on.

Second, TURN IN YOUR BOOKS! That's 2500 points toward your *faction* of choice. Go help your friends and guildies after you get another book, do the quests, turn it in again...

As i explore, i clear out a zone and i'm r5 asura (not too annoying), haven't even turned in the book yet, nor are there that many point quests for the asura. There's so many bonuses for points, are you picking those up too?? This not to mention each zone i clear, toward the end of the groups i get a new skin gold as a random drop. Not always the best req or mods, but so far they've always been the new stuff. Not sure if thats a game design or that i've just been lucky.

You guys that rush through the game amaze me with your crappy grinding talk...

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

None of which make PVE skills any less optional than the core ones.

One person beating the game without any skills does not invalidate the fact that we still need core skills more than PvE skills. Nor does beating the game with no armor, or no weapons, these guys are experimenting with pushing the games to it's limits, not meant for ordinary players.

Core skills that are both accessible by the PvP and PvE community is the skills that count. They are the weapons that are subject to constant tweaking and balancing. PvE-only skills do not cause imbalance, because they're only accessed by one side of the community, specifically only those who've purchased EotN. They're there to spice up your skillbar, and you can't use more than three. If they're just as optional as core skills, we should be allowed to use all 8.

When just about anyone can beat the game with no skills equipped, I'll change my opinion on this, until then, PvE skills are not needed. Prophecies and Factions have yet to need them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Thats exactly what me and all the other people complaining about grind are doing here on fansites - letting anet know. These forums are the only conduit we have to let anet know how we feel about the changes they're making.

I do believe there are more direct methods. You're giving people who have not purchased EotN the impression that there are more grind to it than it is. You say there are more grind as an indisputable fact, when in reality, it's only an "opinion".

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

There was no trade chat spamming involved. When you pass through a city see someone saying WTB X and you have X you open trade. Simple and absolutely grind or spamming required. My second set came from buying monstrous items direct from the material trader and selling them back at 5x the price - no trading involved at all that time.

That's a good and honorable way to approach it, but last time I was in town, I remember seeing the same WTS/WTB X over and over again. Maybe they need a lesson from you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

If they introduce new ways grindless to get reputation then great, thats exactly what wer're asking for! The entire point of posting here is to let anet know that this is what we want. Give us access to these skills without grind!

With how easy it is so far, that's like asking it for free.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I thought we'd been through this - playing slower doesn't give you more reputation. Currently the only way to get reputation is to kill things for the sake of killing them.

Maybe I just suck at the game then, I seem to be finding myself faced with numerous monsters all the time... either that or I just need to find this path of less resistence you're travelling on. All I know is I played slower, and I already have rank 4 before I even know there was a rank requirement for armors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I think its horrendously boring too and don't do it either, but yes "fun" is a matter of opinion. As long as GW provides a variety of "fun" way of getting faction for people that have "fun" in different ways everyone is happy - with the options available to us now, not everyone is happy.

I won't argue that more options is indeed always good. I didn't find the current method boring, it was barely noticeable. But they're not gonna please "everyone" with new options, no matter how many more "options" they add. From what I remember, people have been whining about grind since each and every chapter has ever came out, and this just seems like one of those threads.

rista blodorn · Sep 04, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Couple of thoughts on GW:EN's ally title tracks. Of course they are optional to complete but here's the problem with GW:EN and really all of GW PvE...you follow the story line to completion and then you have all this other stuff that isn't done (skills, titles, expensive armor, whatever) and so you "work" so that you earn one or more of those things and now you're done. You finally have your shiny new whatever and it's all over...gee that's nice. Let me just go stand around in a town for awhile and see if anyone cares.

The whole thing is structured so that the main story arc always feels like an excuse to move you around the map instead of being a conveyance that properly integrates your character development. Prophecies was probably the least guilty of this and GW:EN is definitely on the other extreme. GW:EN can easily be finished in a week or two of very leisurely play and now the choices are: jump into the elite area while you can before the universally accepted team build comes into vogue and excludes a large portion of the players or you can go dungeon hunting or point grinding. And there may not be anything wrong with that but after playing the game for two plus years this kind of feels like GW is going out with a whimper. It certainly doesn't feel like it will do a good job of holding the fan base until GW2 comes out.

To those who state that people are complaining about the grinding I think you miss the point. First, it's a game and it's played for pleasure. Why would I want to "work" for something in a game? Challenge I want, but work...I've got plenty of other work that I have to do, GW shouldn't be work. Grinding is NOT a challenge. Second, pointing out a problem isn't necessarily complaining. I don't think any of the posters taking issue with the grinding is asking for your sympathy. Third, if you think about the game rationally for one second you will see that the entire thing is structured to be a grind at it's heart...hence the ability to re-activate all the main quests so that you can do them over and over and keep filling out your book. I appreciate ANET making the point grind easier, but the whole thing feels like a cop out. Instead of creating game content they put in grind. Easier, cheaper, faster...and disappointing.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

I'm aware there have always been grind. Even since chapter one, certain things that are for prestige and luxury will almost always require a grind of some sort. It's almost synonymous with PvE RPG games.

Cellar claims there have been no "required" grinds until nightfall. Other than the Sunspear/LB points, I don't see reputations as required grinds.

lord dragon · Sep 04, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by rista blodorn

Couple of thoughts on GW:EN's ally title tracks. Of course they are optional to complete but here's the problem with GW:EN and really all of GW PvE...you follow the story line to completion and then you have all this other stuff that isn't done (skills, titles, expensive armor, whatever) and so you "work" so that you earn one or more of those things and now you're done. You finally have your shiny new whatever and it's all over...gee that's nice. Let me just go stand around in a town for awhile and see if anyone cares.

The whole thing is structured so that the main story arc always feels like an excuse to move you around the map instead of being a conveyance that properly integrates your character development. Prophecies was probably the least guilty of this and GW:EN is definitely on the other extreme. GW:EN can easily be finished in a week or two of very leisurely play and now the choices are: jump into the elite area while you can before the universally accepted team build comes into vogue and excludes a large portion of the players or you can go dungeon hunting or point grinding. And there may not be anything wrong with that but after playing the game for two plus years this kind of feels like GW is going out with a whimper. It certainly doesn't feel like it will do a good job of holding the fan base until GW2 comes out.

To those who state that people are complaining about the grinding I think you miss the point. First, it's a game and it's played for pleasure. Why would I want to "work" for something in a game? Challenge I want, but work...I've got plenty of other work that I have to do, GW shouldn't be work. Grinding is NOT a challenge. Second, pointing out a problem isn't necessarily complaining. I don't think any of the posters taking issue with the grinding is asking for your sympathy. Third, if you think about the game rationally for one second you will see that the entire thing is structured to be a grind at it's heart...hence the ability to re-activate all the main quests so that you can do them over and over and keep filling out your book. I appreciate ANET making the point grind easier, but the whole thing feels like a cop out. Instead of creating game content they put in grind. Easier, cheaper, faster...and disappointing.

Thank you very much. You put into words what I have been trying to say.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by rista blodorn

you follow the story line to completion and then you have all this other stuff that isn't done (skills, titles, expensive armor, whatever) and so you "work" so that you earn one or more of those things and now you're done. You finally have your shiny new whatever and it's all over...gee that's nice. Let me just go stand around in a town for awhile and see if anyone cares.

Apathy for an activity is a sign of disinterest. If you think getting your shiny new whatever isn't worth doing, perhaps it's time for you to do something else entirely. Otherwise why bother doing anything at all?

They see a shiny new toy but don't want to walk 3 steps to get it...

gabrial heart · Sep 04, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Well if the storyline required people to do things like kill 5000 monsters to buy a piece that gets you past a certain point, then people would complain there is required grinding. Instead they are criticizing an expansion designed to give level 20's with max armor and weapons something other then *just* those to shoot for. No one should buy it if they aren't interested in *earning* titles or buying new weapons, or accessories. Which BTW, new head and arm pieces is a slick move IMO, on top of new armor sets.

I think a-net has done a decent job with filling EOTN with enough things to shoot for, if your not interested in those things, you should prolly find another game with different things to shoot for.

I take a great deal of whats posted on these forums with a grain of salt. I'd be willing to bet there are a rather large amount of folks that don't actually *work* for their necessities (home, food, clothes, entertainment), otherwise they would notice that playing GW isn't work at all. I use *work* in the same terms as *play*, if you don't enjoy what your doing, it's work. Time to find a new pastime.... Skydiving is pretty fun

Mordakai · Sep 04, 2007, 06:28 PM // 18:28

I see both sides of this.

On one hand I want Chaos Gloves to be an end-game reward, on the other hand if everyone had Chaos Gloves would they be as cool?

Still, 75 ectos. Geez. Little further than 3 steps, eh Diablo?

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I see both sides of this.

On one hand I want Chaos Gloves to be an end-game reward, on the other hand if everyone had Chaos Gloves would they be as cool?

Still, 75 ectos. Geez. Little further than 3 steps, eh Diablo?

I guess we all just have to be our own judge of that. 3 steps for some, 30 paces for others, we look at whats at the end of the journey and estimate if the trek is worth taking.

Burst Cancel · Sep 04, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

That's not exactly true: Req 8, +15% unmodified, and dual reduction shields are just some examples of rare items that cannot be made. There are also rare items with combos of stats that can't be crafted and/or no Green equivalents.

The scope of my statement was limited to vanity items, as stated above. A fellblade is not inherently any stronger than a shortsword; that was the entirety of my point. I'm well aware that abnormally low-req items and special mods exist, and I've never agreed with these either. However, as with PvE skills, I think their overall effect is minimal. Are there cases where a req7 longsword is better than a req9 longsword? Maybe. Does it happen often? I doubt it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

But to your general point of "skill > grind..." Yes, there is no argument that some PvE skills are more powerful than other skills. But how hard is it really to get most of these skills? I mean, there are Elite skills that are very challenging to get, and yet no one complains about those. It's just part of the Guild Wars experience.

At this point you have to distinguish between grind and normal play, and I suppose you run into the problem of 'grind' being subjective. I wouldn't characterize capping elites as grind, just as I wouldn't characterize completing missions to be grind - they are done in the course of normal play. Title grinding is different, because beyond the points you get for quests and exploration, you will have to find an efficient way to "run" areas and rack up points. At this point, it's no longer normal play for fun, and is merely reptitive grind for rewards. That, frankly, is no good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

As long as the competitive area of Guild Wars stays on equal footing (and I'd actually argue that PvP has been made MORE balanced with the PvP editions for example), then Anet has fullfilled it's promise.

PvP balance is clearly more important than PvE balance due to the added element of competition, and I agree that the PvP editions are directed to that end. However, I don't recall Anet making a promise of "skill > grind" to just PvPers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

PvE is not about "fair" play, it's about having fun. I can have fun in Guild Wars without the +100 armor skill from grinding Faction points, and while it is not ideal to me, it doesn't ruin my enjoyment of Guild Wars.

Sure, but it does mean that you're not as effective as someone who did grind out that title.

Again, I think title-based benefits are inappropriate just on principle. I don't actually think they have a significant impact on the players overall. And frankly, I suspect that most players, like you, simply don't give a damn one way or the other. That, of course, is just as good.

Mordakai · Sep 04, 2007, 06:54 PM // 18:54

I'm just happy that the Norn Blessing skills were available very early in the game...

To be quite honest, I'm actually focused on getting a Black Moa Chick at the moment, which requires me to "grind" 10k Luxon faction (never did the Luxon side with Amara).

And that brings up your point: Grind is subjective. For some, the 100k to get Luxon Supporter is not grind. For me, it's not even worth obtaining.

I guess we all make those choices....

tyche7 · Sep 04, 2007, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Indeed there is FAR too much grind.

Anet used to put on their official website that one of the highlights of Guild Wars is that it's based on skill and NOT on grind. Notice how that's not there anymore? Coincidence?

duberdurm · Sep 04, 2007, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by rista blodorn

Couple of thoughts on GW:EN's ally title tracks. Of course they are optional to complete but here's the problem with GW:EN and really all of GW PvE...you follow the story line to completion and then you have all this other stuff that isn't done (skills, titles, expensive armor, whatever) and so you "work" so that you earn one or more of those things and now you're done. You finally have your shiny new whatever and it's all over...gee that's nice. Let me just go stand around in a town for awhile and see if anyone cares.

The whole thing is structured so that the main story arc always feels like an excuse to move you around the map instead of being a conveyance that properly integrates your character development. Prophecies was probably the least guilty of this and GW:EN is definitely on the other extreme. GW:EN can easily be finished in a week or two of very leisurely play and now the choices are: jump into the elite area while you can before the universally accepted team build comes into vogue and excludes a large portion of the players or you can go dungeon hunting or point grinding. And there may not be anything wrong with that but after playing the game for two plus years this kind of feels like GW is going out with a whimper. It certainly doesn't feel like it will do a good job of holding the fan base until GW2 comes out.

To those who state that people are complaining about the grinding I think you miss the point. First, it's a game and it's played for pleasure. Why would I want to "work" for something in a game? Challenge I want, but work...I've got plenty of other work that I have to do, GW shouldn't be work. Grinding is NOT a challenge. Second, pointing out a problem isn't necessarily complaining. I don't think any of the posters taking issue with the grinding is asking for your sympathy. Third, if you think about the game rationally for one second you will see that the entire thing is structured to be a grind at it's heart...hence the ability to re-activate all the main quests so that you can do them over and over and keep filling out your book. I appreciate ANET making the point grind easier, but the whole thing feels like a cop out. Instead of creating game content they put in grind. Easier, cheaper, faster...and disappointing.

Exactly. I agree completely.

My thing is that while I hate grinding, I could do it if it was worth it. So they lowered the rank requirements? Good for them, now let's make some armor that actually makes me want to tolerate grinding for. None of the armor pieces/sets I've seen for any of the GWEN professions is worth "working" for. I don't know who designed it but they have no talent. It's REALLY boring and obviously recycled. I've seen most of the GWEN armor and the only pieces of armor I like are the spectacles and the face paint, but I have to grind for this? Please. If they expect us to do all this tiresome repetitive rank farming then at least put forth some effort into designing nice armor or eliminate the rank requirements altogether. If not, maybe they should go easier on the folks that make bots.

My overall rating for GWEN is 3.0 out of 5. It could have been better, and I know because Nightfall was better. Even Factions beats GWEN, and yes, that's a slap in the face. This should have been a $15 expansion at best.

Diablo™ · Sep 04, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by duberdurm

Exactly. I agree completely.

My thing is that while I hate grinding, I could do it if it was worth it. So they lowered the rank requirements? Good for them, now let's make some armor that actually makes me want to tolerate grinding for. None of the armor pieces/sets I've seen for any of the GWEN professions is worth "working" for. I don't know who designed it but they have no talent. It's REALLY boring and obviously recycled. I've seen most of the GWEN armor and the only pieces of armor I like are the spectacles and the face paint, but I have to grind for this? Please. If they expect us to do all this tiresome repetitive rank farming then at least put forth some effort into designing nice armor or eliminate the rank requirements altogether. If not, maybe they should go easier on the folks that make bots.

My overall rating for GWEN is 3.0 out of 5. It could have been better, and I know because Nightfall was better. Even Factions beats GWEN, and yes, that's a slap in the face. This should have been a $15 expansion at best.

You guys use the term "Grind" like it's universal. Define grind, because to us, Grind means "eaning" something, especially luxury goods. If you want something, and don't want to "earn" it, the problem isn't the game.

If grind is specifically an activity that you don't like, then it's a matter of opinion, it's not a factor of the game. Who knows? Maybe in Korea, doing missions and quests are considered a grind, and all they want to do is go out there and rampage. Ever played Lineage 2?

Don't say "Grind" like we all agree its the same thing...

Mordakai · Sep 04, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

That's why I brought up the Faction example.

Does anyone here consider getting the 10k Faction "grind?" If so, then Guild Wars has had "grind" way before GWEN.

If not, why not? What specifically is different between say, the Norn title track, and getting 10k Faction for Luxon?

gabrial heart · Sep 04, 2007, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Where GW differs right now from many other MMO's is that it's easier to obtain, adventure, or otherwise earn max stat weapons armor or goods. So *the grind* is purely for those interested in having the best they think is out there. This is also a good deal of GW's downfall, better isn't really better, only more rare and people get upset by not having or being the best at something. Wow for example is more geared toward having the uber and rare weapons, armor and skills along with expanding the level cap, but thats not how GW1 was designed at all.

Overall rating for me is a 4.5 out of 5, with only one thing i would actually change with the HOM. That would be to show any accomplishment you deem valuable, whether or not those carry over to GW2 or not. Most people interested in HOM are really only interested in looking back at all that they have gotten and picking favorites of those to display, mostly for themselves to gaze upon and less then to show off. Having tangible items to show for your days spent is nice, even if no one else cares.

Navaros · Sep 04, 2007, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

I mean, there are Elite skills that are very challenging to get, and yet no one complains about those. It's just part of the Guild Wars experience.

None of the Elite skills in any of the GW games are "very challenging" to get. Just about every one of them is remarkably easy to get. FoC and the Sunjiang caps can be marginally challenging due to many mobs in the same place. Everything else is remarkably easy to get.

People don't complain about grind because it's "challenging". Rather, the opposite is true, repeating the same task hundreds/thousands of times is not the least bit challenging. If challenge did exist in the place of where grind is, that would be great.